Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello, and welcome back to Cyber Matters, uh, powered by the Caso Podcast Network. I'm your host, Rus Dorsey, uh, a principal and c i o here at Caso and Company in Birmingham. Uh, in the last segment, uh, which I hope you'll find in, uh, in, in our our podcast list, we were talking to Lynn Scho. Um, and we're continuing that conversation today. Uh, we'll get back into just, just quickly lens a, uh, see, I talked about this 30 minutes ago. I'm gonna get you up on camera here. I talked about this 30 minutes ago, and I'm already gonna fumble through it again. But, but, but, but you're currently, um, with the, uh, Jefferson State Community College Police, please? That's correct. Um, we talked about, uh, you know, your, your career as a, a certified fraud examiner, but also a certified, uh, financial crime investigator. And your, your background with the I r s, uh, and, uh, and then the treasury, but not as an agent investigating i r s fraud, but specific more tax cases.
Speaker 0 00:00:53 More tax cases once they got to, like people pretending to be i r s agents. That's right. And those kinds with all impersonations. That's correct. So please, please go back and catch that podcast to get caught up, uh, for, for this one. But I wanted to get back into what we were talking about, which is, you know, the, the types of fraud that we see, um, that affect our families. Uh, and again, it's not, it, it is the elderly that appears to be the, the largest victim pool a lot of times, but it's also anybody that we interact with. That's what we were talking about, was anybody that we interact with that comes up to, as you said, to seal the driveway. And it's this unexpected knock at the door. It's this unexpected phone call. Um, I'll tell the story. I'll, my wife never watches these, so I'll tell the story about her, um, getting her phone hacked, but it's any, any incidental contact we have that then turns into a set of instructions followed by request for money.
Speaker 0 00:01:46 It's just, that shouldn't happen naturally. 'cause it's not how money comes to you, I think. Right? That's right. That's exactly right. Yeah. So, so, so anytime you, you, you, you're engaged. Uh, you know, and, and I think about even the times I've stopped, uh, and been engaged at the gas station with somebody needing that $5 because their mom was at the hospital. And, you know, and I, and we all have big hearts and want to help people, and I've done that several times. Uh, sometimes they'd let me put gas in the tank. Sometimes they got offended, and I knew they were wanting to get the money. And then sometimes I'd put some gas in the tank, and then I'd come back from the Dairy Queen and see 'em across the street and getting it from somebody else. <laugh>. So apparently mom was further away. Um, but, you know, those things, they can only get what's in your pocket, but if they hit you at home, they can get what's in your bank account.
Speaker 0 00:02:31 And again, with our, you know, with, with the retired population having so much, we're talking about life savings, getting drained, uh, once they find the right victim. And in the previous segment, Lynn, uh, you were, you were talking about how they, they, they kind of multi-thread this and even come back as the, uh, you know, under the guise of helping. Right. You, so, uh, you know, I, I really just in my notes here said I wanted to talk about, uh, you know, about some case, you know, some, some cases that, you know, are, are, are good, um, you know, cautionary tales. But I, I think the one thing since I mentioned what happened with my wife, um, was, you know, she's fairly savvy. I'm in technology, but I get a call from her one day. Um, it just that they, they got her on a drive by on, on her, her phone just to pop up.
Speaker 0 00:03:20 Hey, no, I take that back. They actually called her, they actually called her on her phone, but said they were with American Express. They detected a fraud and they set the stage for it, and they needed to get her to get into her American Express account to check for it. And, uh, they, and they needed to create this account, uh, to, to get a, a gift certificate at that point. She, she, she, they, they, they caught her off guard. And, but they manage, and my wife is not technically savvy. I'm talking about somebody that, you know, will throw a phone further than she can use it half the time, <laugh>. Um, but they managed to do a remote control session on an iPhone, um, which I can't even do.
Speaker 1 00:04:03 Yeah. <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:04:04 Just long enough to watch her as she was keying in the password into the Amex site, they were catching that little blip as it pops up to get that account. And at the end of the day, she calls me, she, she realizes what's going on. She calls me, we have the am you know, Amex maybe lost 80 bucks on the thing. But the devastation to her, 'cause what I didn't really appreciate till I got home, Incy shaken up. She was, was how brutal this guy had been. I mean, he wasn't nice about it. He was belligerent with her. Uh, he was yelling at her over the phone. He got her flustered and then took advantage of that, uh, until she finally got her senses about her. And she's still this many years. So since that happened, and it is still, I think, one of the most traumatic things, uh, you know, and I'm talking about, you know, lady that's had 25 or so surgeries in the last year, you know, ed, but this is the one thing that just really, and so when we were talking earlier about people that have lost large amounts of money, and you were talking about the indignation that comes, um, so I mean, what, what is something that, you know, uh, you, you were talking, uh, I need to throw it over to you, I guess
Speaker 1 00:05:10 First off, I, I, I'm glad you told the story about, uh, um, American Express. Well, one thing I do wanna clarify is that I have always been impressed with, uh, American Express's fraud detection capability. Yeah. 'cause I've been victimized myself where my cards was compromised. They caught it when I wouldn't have even been able to tell. And, and I would actually get those calls. Well, now, if you get lulled into the fact that every time American Express calls claiming to be American Express fraud detection, that that's always real. Now we know that's not the case either. Um, and then the, the fact that they're either gonna send you a link or something that they can remote into your telephone and then capture your passwords, that's, that's scary. Very, very scary. Um, we, um, you know, when we, uh, talked just a moment about, you know, having other, uh, like family members that you're concerned about, um, you know, we, we talked a little bit in the last segment about what individuals can do to protect themselves.
Speaker 1 00:06:12 But if you've got people that you're concerned about, maybe your parents or grandparents, aunts, uncles, or just close friends, that, particularly in the older generation, um, one of the first things you wanna do is make sure you stay engaged. Um, you know, keep in touch with 'em. Because a lot of times, uh, they'll talk to these people on the telephone, uh, because they're lonely mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And now they've got a friendly voice. And some of them will start out friendly. And if you don't do what they tell 'em, then they're gonna get that, uh, get angry. Uh, um, they, you know, um, start, you know, threatening you, cussing you out, um, because you're not doing what it is that they wanted you to do. Now, clearly, that's gonna be an indicator. This is not real. But by this time, they're, they're, they're berating you into to acquiescing to whatever they wanna do.
Speaker 1 00:07:01 And you don't want that. So, uh, and, and we talked about my mother having been scammed and, and the ex, the extent that these people go through to, uh, con you into that, uh, during that whole time, my father was in the nursing home. And, um, um, so my mother would share with them what was going on, and they say, can I pray for you? And then they would pray for my mother and my father while they were telling her to go to, uh, Walmart and c v s and buy green.cards. And so, I mean, they will do whatever it is and try to lull you into thinking that they're legitimate and okay. Um, so you wanna stay engaged in this people's lives as much as you can. Uh, when you are dealing with them, kind of be on the lookout for changes in behavior.
Speaker 1 00:07:56 Uh, maybe they're, I know on one occasion where my mother was told she was gonna win, uh, like $1.8 billion, but she had to send money. She went to my sister's house where, uh, they had, uh, some, uh, parents had put some cash in the safe there, and she needed to get some out. And then she started acting almost giddy. Like, uh, uh, I, I, I'm getting something, but I can't tell you what it is. Well, my sister had no idea. She didn't share with her what was going on, but, um, it was all about the winnings that she thought she was going to get. So if, if they're acting completely out of character, um, or I can always tell when my mom calls up, something's going on like that she's acting, uh, out of character, that she'll start in the middle of a conversation like, Hey, I wanna know, can you, can you tell me if, uh, some number is the area code for Ohio?
Speaker 1 00:08:48 That's not the way you start a conversation. Or she would ask me, have you ever heard of the Mega Millions? You know, and I knew then something was up. But, you know, so if they, uh, uh, the conversation's a bit out of character for them, they're acting strangely because the bad guys are all going to tell 'em. Uh, particularly on winnings. Um, if you tell anybody, then you're not gonna get the winnings. And so they start acting like they're hiding something from you. You're gonna be on the lookout for that. And if you are blessed to be living nearby, and you can go by and visit, just kinda look around and see if you see mailings from sweepstakes that you've never heard of. If it says Publisher's Clearinghouse, there's a good chance this from Publisher's Clearinghouse. Not necessarily if they call you on the phone, but if it's in writing, it probably is the real focus it's clearing out.
Speaker 1 00:09:35 But if it's from sweepstakes, you've never heard of, kinda be on the lookout for that. Or you start seeing, uh, iTunes cards laying around for people that are not tech savvy. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, because unless your, you know, your grandchild wants one, you know, what do you want for your birthday? So gimme some iTunes cards. Okay, fine. But other than that, some people are not gonna have these things. And that's the way the bad guys will often, even if they're, they tell you you're paying your late power bill, they'll send you to get to iTunes cards. That's not the way you pay your light bill. So, um, you know, you start seeing things that are outta character or, um, Western Union transmittal sheets, uh, for multiple transactions of money, uh, by Western Union just laying around, because they may actually have that stuff laying out where you could see it.
Speaker 1 00:10:22 And that's, that's gonna be a big indicator that that's something that maybe you'd want to inquire about a little bit more. And then if it ever comes to the point that you suspect that they've been victimized, then there are definitely things you wanna look for. Um, even the bad guys will tell the victims, write this down. Because even if the person, uh, has diminished capacity to the extent that they wouldn't, couldn't take on a lot of, uh, business affairs, they're pretty good about following the last instructions first. And so if the bad guy says, okay, now write this down. And they're, they'll do that. Um, and they'll write down. So you'll have the, the phone number of the stuff originated what it is they were told they were gonna win, uh, the name of the person, uh, who at least they claim to be. Um, and certain other indicators, maybe mailing addresses.
Speaker 1 00:11:13 I know, uh, the most recent time when my mother was, uh, cheated, it turned out to be a Jamaican scheme, uh, an individual in Brooklyn. And, uh, so when I found those notes, we were able to secure those notes, and I was able to get, like, uh, the address in Brooklyn where the cashier's check was sent to by u p s overnight. Um, uh, you may find, uh, receipts for cashier's checks or, uh, shipping labels from u p s or uh, FedEx. Something where it's like overnight. Uh, most of the time bad guys won't ask for, uh, things to be sent via United States Mail. Uh, they're a little bit fearful of the mail fraud statute. What they don't really realize is in 1996, Congress went back and changed the mail fraud statute, so that if you use a private carrier to avoid the mail fraud statute, it's still mail fraud.
Speaker 1 00:11:58 Okay. Uh, so, uh, we've been able to use that successfully, uh, on many prosecutions. But, you know, look for those kinds of things. Always ask about the notes, uh, if they have notes. Uh, gentlemen, we talked about in the previous segment, uh, who was been, had been victimized for a long period of time, uh, he was real good about taking notes. The man had an entire spiral notebook. He kept 'em all in the same place. He had a spiral notebook on more, more than one scheme on every page where he'd written down everything that he was supposed to do, had all kind of tracking numbers and everything on there. And so you were able to do that. And even though I wasn't working on all of those, just looking back through those notes, I was able to find, um, two different schemes that I knew for a fact that my agency was investigating. One in Atlanta and one in South Florida. Uh, so look for those kinds of things.
Speaker 0 00:12:51 Yeah. There, there, there was a, a case, uh, and that I, I got involved in, of course, it was, I'm, I'm usually brought in for cyber stuff just to give some consults by no means law enforcement. But this, this gentleman, um, and, and, and again, to get back to how they billed these scams, he'd been contacted, he got the popup on his computer. So that was the cyber component that said, oh, your computer's been, uh, been, you know, got malware. You gotta call this number. Um, but I guess on the number, uh, and I think it was while he was going to his banking side or something, but, uh, Howard, it was, they tied it back to his bank. Then he's then talking to a bank supervisor, um, who then proceeds to unwind this story. And I think it's like you mentioned in the last segment, this, this progression of, oh, we got somebody, let me hand over to this specialist Yes.
Speaker 0 00:13:38 Who's now gonna do this. But he was taking meticulous notes, which is what I was handed, but he had the person's name, but he had their employee id, which I've never called a bank and been given an employee id. That was a kind of a red flag to me that they had this, it's my employee id. Every person y have that he talked to had an employee id. But this bank, the story was that there's a, uh, there's money being pulled outta your account was where they got him in his mind. And we need you to go to your local branch. Um, and when you get there, though, you can't tell anybody. 'cause we think it's an inside job. And that was the twisted part. He goes in and manages to do the wire transfer, and it was, if I'm remembering right, 50,000, 30 $50,000 that he transferred out on day one, uh, without it having to explain to the bank why he was doing this.
Speaker 0 00:14:27 Because he was trying to, because what the, uh, the bad guy told him was, we're gonna secure your money in another account while we investigate what's going on at the branch, elaborate story. Uh, then they contact him back and say, well, we, we've got that money, we need to secure the rest of your money. And they went back, and that's when he realized he'd been defrauded. Um, and went back to the bank and disclosed what had happened. Um, but it was just understanding how they get that person into that mindset. It's like you said, some people won't, won't talk about it because they're prideful. Uh, but in some cases they've been instructed not to tell. Oh, absolutely. Everybody around 'em. Right.
Speaker 1 00:15:02 Uh, one of the things you, you mentioned about employee ID numbers, when some of the reform legislation, um, tax reform legislation was passed and, uh, to, to make taxpayers feel more comfortable, um, and that they were not being abused by government, government agency, government employees. The i r s came out with a policy, and it might've even been mandated by law, but certainly by policy, that every time you dealt with a an I R S employee, they had to give you their employee.
Speaker 0 00:15:34 Oh, right. Right.
Speaker 1 00:15:34 They do. Yeah. So, and it was done so that you would always know which employee it really was. So if you had an, an issue, didn't need to be followed up on the I ss you could say, well, the person I dealt with was 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Um, well, everybody meant well when they implemented that policy. All that happened after that is that every impersonator started giving fake employee ID numbers. So every time an I SS employee or someone impersonate an i s employee, they throw in that employee ID number. And all that did is raise the confidence level that you were dealing with a real i r s employee. Yeah. So it had, it was intended for one purpose, and all it did was give the bad guys another avenue for confidence. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:16:20 That's, that's, uh, that's typically the, the kind of thing we see these unintended, you know, these, these safety measures that they put on sites. I mean, I, we, we, we saw it in cyber when they first started putting your trust search and, and things on websites. This site is safe and well, that's easy for the bad guys to, to clip that and, and, and use it to their advantage, uh, to, to, as you say, build that confidence in authority that this is a, a legitimate thing that's going on. Um, yeah. That, that was a, uh, a, a maddening case. I think the o the other one that I got involved with was cyber, on the cyber end of it was, and, and you already alluded to that was just the, the, the, the, the coming back to that victim time and time and time again. Um, but, but you had mentioned, uh, it was a case was did, did you just mention one about your mom that you said I hadn't heard before?
Speaker 1 00:17:09 Is that Yeah. Um, so this kind of goes back to the teaching point about, uh, when you're with them and you got listen for stuff. So in my most recent visit back home to Tennessee to see my mother, uh, my mother is not tech savvy at all. She can't work the remote on the television. If she gets on the wrong channel, she has to call my sister to come down. I mean, so she's, she's got a flip phone, old school telephone in the house, uh, no other technology. So she starts talking about, but she does, writes a lot of letters. And she said, Hey, man, I've got me some forever stamps, posted stamps, $27 50 cents a hundred. And then she was kind of bragging about she was able to get that. And then she said that my cousin here in Alabama helped her get 'em. And, and it, so at first blush, I'm like, something about that don't sound right. 'cause, so I started doing a little research before this otherwise came up, and there are some major retailers that are able to get a deal with the postal service for, like, you, 'em, like, uh, 10 cents off, and then they can recoup their loss and, and sell 'em at a store to you at face value, but not at that kind of deep discounted rate. There's no way you're gonna get a hundred stamps for $27 50 cents,
Speaker 1 00:18:27 But, you know, wasn't thinking too much about it. The next thing I know, I hear my mother on the phone talking to her best friend who's an elderly lady in, um, widow in, uh, Mississippi. She's talking to her son who's probably older than I am. And, um, explaining him, so here's what you do. You go on, you get on your Google, and here's what you type in, uh, forever, 100 forever stamps for $27 50 cents
Speaker 2 00:18:53 <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:18:55 So now she's got this widow woman in, in, uh, Mississippi gonna go online and start buying Post-it stamps for 27, 50, 50, a hundred. I'm like, oh, something about this is clearly just wrong. And so as soon as she hangs up the phone, I said, I started looking for notes. I said, bring me everything that you've got about that. So she's got some of this stuff written out, like what the Google search terms that you're supposed to use when you do that.
Speaker 1 00:19:25 So I reached out to my good friend who's the, uh, head of the postal inspection office here in, uh, Birmingham. Um, so I had her to bring me some of the stamps that she'd gotten. And my first concern is that their counterfeit stamps, so he and I started engaging in it. I send him pictures of the stamps she's been buying, and I'm really concerned about that. So I was, one of the things I was gonna be able to tell my mother is that if you're buying counterfeit stamps and you're using them, you're actually facilitating a crime yourself. So you're now unwittingly Oh wow. Participating that you're actually a criminal, um, a criminal act by using a stamp that's counterfeit. So there could be consequences to you. But then when I'm asking, um, my friend in the postal inspection service about how to detect them, and he gave me some clue indicators about, so I, I went to the store and bought a black light so I could do some more comparisons while I was sitting in my mom's house. But then one of the things he also shared with me, he said, well, he said, there's a strong possibility that they're not counterfeit.
Speaker 1 00:20:28 What they are is where a criminal has stolen your credit card information, went out and bought a thousand dollars worth of real postal stamps on the postal service on your credit card. And they're selling 'em online for 27, 50, a hundred.
Speaker 1 00:20:43 So you, you're not committing a crime if you're doing that, but you're unwittingly supporting an entire criminal enterprise. And technically by selling the stamps online is laundering the proceeds. Okay. So it's, it's a money laundering matter. Um, and so, um, I, in, in that instance, I shared, uh, back with Ronnie the, uh, um, the U R L for that site that, that my cousin was buying these for my, for my mother at 27 50 because he said their revenue protection program at, uh, postal service, they're gonna do undercover buys. Hmm. So they can start checking to see if perhaps they're counterfeit and, uh, stuff like that, but things you don't think about. So just by overhearing my mother saying that, so the first thing I told her was, okay, look, you don't, I, this is too good to be true. You, these something's wrong with this, and you need to be aware that either of these are counterfeit stamps and these could be consequences, or at least you're, you're actually furthering someone else's criminal enterprise and you don't, you don't wanna do that either. And now you've got your best friend caught up in this too. You, uh, you might wanna call them back and say, I wouldn't do that if I was you. You know, and that was just by just overhearing a conversation in one of those rare occasions when I'm sitting in my mother's home. So it'd be, you gotta be mindful about any conversation that you hear that, that they're, they've kind of been lulled into doing something that
Speaker 0 00:22:17 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:22:18 It may not be all up and
Speaker 0 00:22:19 Up and, and, and somebody could have started that on, on Instagram. I, when, when it comes to those things that, that you find that may have been on Instagram, they're, they're kind of fed to you. Um, there, there is this need to teandra and that I I, I've, I've heard a presentation in the past talking about the amount, and maybe in the early days, but probably still the amount of stolen goods on Amazon. Oh, yes. Uh, uh, you know, uh, either from overseas, because that's, it's a fungible asset, right? That's
Speaker 1 00:22:45 Right. Where Amazon will let vendors sell on their platform. So somebody's, the classic would be somebody stole your credit card mm-hmm. <affirmative> ordered up a bunch of like ring doorbell cameras, and then they become a vendor on Amazon. And you think you're buying from Amazon and you buy up a legitimate product Yeah. From a legitimate company. But the vendor that's actually in the middle over here, a third party vendor is actually bought all these with stolen proceeds. So yes, that is a huge
Speaker 0 00:23:20 Thing, like the romance scam or something where somebody says, Hey, you know, which, which is another whole thing that
Speaker 1 00:23:25 Is, yeah. That's
Speaker 0 00:23:25 Another thing's, Hey, I need you to send me 10 iPads over to, you know, Africa because I'm working on a mission that's the tail end of a romance scam. So that's where they use the stolen cred, you know, credit card, or somebody willingly goes and buys the iPads, oh, that's right. Then they ship 'em. But those iPads wind up right back on Amazon for,
Speaker 1 00:23:42 You know, they very easily could, very easily do. Yeah. I, since you mentioned romance scams, I, I do have one thing I really wanna caution people about. You don't wanna scare people rarely on these kind of schemes. Is there a real person real close that's gonna do you harm? See, that's typically, um, the thing, and I'm, I'm glad for that. Um, I was listening to another podcast from the International Association of Financial Crimes Investigators. Um, they put out, and it was a two-part, uh, series, and it had to do with a romance scam. Uh, the lady in lived in the Midwest, uh, she had grown children. Her husband had passed away, but she was a business woman, uh, very skilled in accounting and finance. She was just, you know, sharp top of her game. Uh, but then she'd met some guy on a dating site, something, uh, who, uh, was purportedly from Sweden, and he was involved in all kinds of investment opportunities.
Speaker 1 00:24:42 And so this thing went on. Um, the daughter then gets a telephone call from the actual postal inspectors saying, Hey, we think your mom may be, uh, caught up in a romance scam. And so the daughter actually confronted mom and, and mom's like, oh no. And, you know, and I'm careful. Don't worry about it, everything's gonna be fine. And, uh, so the daughter was paying a little bit more attention, but like I said, they've already been notified by federal law enforcement. There's a problem with this. And then one day, uh, shortly thereafter that, um, there was some money that got transferred, the daughter asked the mother, was this a, an investment opportunity that this gentleman had that you're hooked up with here? Um, is it an opportunity that he shared with you, brought to your attention? And of course, mom's a little bit reluctant to go into more detail. And not long after that, uh, mom went missing and, um, her body was recovered from the city river.
Speaker 0 00:25:46 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:25:47 Uh, so it, it, this, these things, uh, could actually evolve into something that bad.
Speaker 0 00:25:56 Yeah. They, they, they, they, they often can have real world consequences because a lot of times they have to have real world actors, even if they're running the scam out of not Jerry or out of Eastern Europe. Oh, absolutely. They have to have agents here who are moving some things around or maybe, you know, complicit in some way. Absolutely. Uh, yeah. So, uh, I guess to kind of wrap this session up, uh, you know, we, we, we've talked about what to look for and what, what, what some of these different scams are, uh, and that they're coming via any kind of contact. I mean, somebody knocking on your door, but usually right now it's the phone scams. I think the phone scams get worse just because of AI phone right now is still the easiest way to engage people, like you said, to really get into the deep scams, they've got to have that control. And they can't really do that with a phishing email. They can't, I mean, they can maybe take your computer over and grab some information, but when they can, can get you on the phone. Oh, yeah. And catch you at your weakest is when they can,
Speaker 1 00:26:47 I still see value in the do not call list. Yeah. I, I made a point to put my cell phones and my home phone on there. Uh, because if it's a legitimate company and you just don't wanna be bothered by them, they'll follow the rules and they won't bother you. Yeah. Um, if it's a somewhat legitimate company that's got Renegade employees or agents, uh, they may cut corners and go ahead and call. Um, if it's a straight up criminal, they don't care. The lease of their concerns is the Federal Trade Commission and the fine civil fine for calling somebody on do not call list. But at least it helps me determine that either it was someone that got my contact information legitimately, although it was frustrating to me, um, because, uh, for example, uh, all of us, as in when you hit your 64th birthday, everybody and their brother wants to see you, a Medicare Advantage plan, uh, and you're gonna get a call from all kinds of legitimate companies. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I don't wanna be bothered by any of them, but they That's okay. And it's not in violation. Do not call list. That's frustration. But on the other hand, if I know that I'm on the do not call list and somebody is calling me with something, you know, here, uh, that might be a better indicator. To me, that's a straight up criminal. 'cause they don't care. So I, I still see value in the do not call list. Um, I'd get on it if I was not already on it. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:28:13 But, but, but, but still, the, the, the phone scams are, are gonna remain Oh, an issue for a long, long time. Yeah. Be, be because of the technology they can now put behind the phones. So, uh, you know, to, to kinda get, just to find, find a couple of bullet points take away. So I've been scammed, say, uh, and I've got significant losses. Um, what are the things I need to do to engage law enforcement the most effectively? Do I go to my local pd? Am I call, am I calling the F B I? Uh, I mean it, uh, I I guess if it's, like you said, if there's a threat of a physical contact, I mean, who, who do I want to call first? Who do I want to have on my call list? And,
Speaker 1 00:28:52 And, uh, this is gonna be one of those, um, answers. Well, it depends. It depends, yeah. If, if, uh, if the person's coming to your home and wants to seal your driveway or work on your roof or fix your chimney and you're skeptical about that, or they get a little bit pushy, um, local law enforcement is, is your best option. I mean, you wanna call somebody to get, get a, a response out there right away to make it a matter of record or whatever the case may be. Um, so that's always gonna be, uh, a local law enforcement, if you think there's a person, if somebody shows up, even if it's started over the telephone, but somebody shows up at your house, you won't start with local law enforcement, get somebody to intervene, uh, because of the whole physical safety issues. The others, uh, are, then again, it depends.
Speaker 1 00:29:39 Let's say somebody called you up and it was an investment opportunity, and now you think you're being scammed. Uh, we're blessed in Alabama, uh, with having the Alabama, uh, securities commission mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, one of the most aggressive investigative bodies at the state level anywhere in the United States. Uh, very, very impressive. Um, and so if it had anything to do with an investment opportunity, doesn't matter, uh, if the caller was coming from, uh, Alabama or not, they have jurisdiction. And if the victim is in Alabama, so that would be one because of the special nature of the scam, I would call somebody like that. Uh, otherwise, uh, if it was, um, one of the other, you know, like I, if you knew, for example, that the Treasury Inspector General for tax administration works, I r s Imperson agents, and somebody called you up and said, I'm from the i r s send money, um, then obviously dealing directly with them would be a good thing.
Speaker 1 00:30:36 But otherwise, uh, you can, uh, either call the local F B I office, uh, or deal with the, uh, internet Crime Complaint Center mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and, and file a report there and they can screen it and send it out to the appropriate federal law enforcement agency. Yeah. So it's, it, it definitely is gonna be one of those who you call depends, and even when I have a victim calling me, uh, or I'll get family members call me, say, Hey, I think my mom's been scammed, and here's what the situation is, I'll listen for those indicators, uh, that would say that this case more nearly fits the postal inspection service, the Secret Service, the F B I, or one specific one. And I would farm that over to them. When my mother was, uh, uh, scammed the first time in Tennessee, uh, we reached out to the Secret Service just simply on the basis of how the thing was carried out. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:31:29 And, and, and there's a feeling, you know, uh, as you know, a lot of us that there's, there's so much of this that you're probably not gonna get your money back if you were taken for, for some amount of money. But, but I always want to say, uh, like in the case of this, this gentleman I mentioned that went to the bank, he waited a week before talking to anybody else and what he didn't know, and I was very upset that the bank didn't tell him this, was that they could have reversed that wire transfer for up to 72 hours through the IC three, the internet. Right.
Speaker 1 00:32:00 Internet crime complaints.
Speaker 0 00:32:01 Yeah. <laugh>, yeah, I ic three.gov, which I'm gonna put in the, in the links below, they will initiate what's called a business email Compromise Kill Chain.
Speaker 1 00:32:10 Absolutely.
Speaker 0 00:32:10 And they can reverse out even if it's going overseas. Uh, and in most cases, if they have mutual cooperation, they can pull those transfers back for up for seven City Tower. So you've got to have that in your speed dial to say, okay. Oh yes. Because what happens is, you, you, you call the local police and you, you want to probably do wanna start there if, if you've got something, again, as physical threat or something, or even a loss just to get it on record, but the don't, don't leave it to the local police to call the F B I. You have every Right. And absolutely. And the local F B I office, they do a lot of outreach in, in this area. And elder fraud right now, by the way, is huge. If you go to the fbi.gov site, they've got a lot on this.
Speaker 0 00:32:46 So when you call the local Birmingham office with something and I get a, a larger loss, uh, they're, they're gonna be concerned, and you're gonna get an agent if it's a, you know, an amount they, and if it's time sensitive. But you have to communicate that. So I think that's an important thing to understand about these scams. I mean, if it's on your credit card, American Express is gonna protect you, you know, they're gonna protect the loss, uh, but if they've gotten into your bank, uh, but, but I'm, I'm glad you mentioned, uh, the Alabama Securities Commission. Um, I mean, you're right. That is a great resource. Uh, we're actually planning to get them on. I didn't know that Joe bga retired, but, uh, did you know that? No,
Speaker 1 00:33:21 I was
Speaker 0 00:33:22 Not aware that Joe, I wanted to get Joe, that'd been, he retired, but, but, but one, one other thing, and we mentioned this I think in the last segment too, but if you're gathering some information for law enforcement, you had mentioned the notes, things around the house, I think we talked about in the beginning of this segment, but all of those things that are in the environment there, so that you've got that evidence together for the law enforcement agent that that's gonna come help you with that. And you can give them all this information. It's like you said, you, you found two other cases referenced. There may be a pattern attack going on just in this area code that's impacting, you know, as specific as the trustful prefix. So if you see things Oh, yes. Yeah. So if you report there and they go, yeah, we're getting a lot of complaints, you know, in this, this week about that you're gonna help law enforcement, uh, even if you don't get your own a hundred dollars or $200 back. Right?
Speaker 1 00:34:08 Oh yeah. And, and one of the ways about tying things together, uh, as a law enforcement investigator, I have an account with, uh, consumer Sentinel, which is controlled, uh, by the Federal Trade Commission and gets feeds from every kind of place. Um, on the, uh, most recent time, or one of the times when my mother was scammed, I guess the most recent time, um, I was able to take her notes, um, and the names that the person was using and do a search on keywords in Consumer Sentinel, and was able to find a victim in Missouri, uh, that was told this, that, that the bag guy was using the same alias, uh, it was the same telephone number, it was the same street address in Brooklyn. And so I knew it was the same, same set of bad guys. And, and what it does is, if you don't know for sure about the credibility of one witness, but you can see that they're using the same verbiage, same everything over here will actually corroborates that and you can tie those cases together. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:35:10 So, so, so it helps law enforcement out later on. Alright, well, well, Lynn, I want to, uh, thank you again for taking, uh, this time with me. I always enjoy, uh, hearing everything you have to say, but also, like I said, I always learn 12 or 15 new things from you, just 'cause your experience. I hope we can have you back at some point. Sure. Uh, I mean, we, as, as things change or certainly if something comes up, um, but, but we can't, I, I guess, as I said, starting this out, I, I know we've said some things in here that you've already heard on, you know, uh, good Morning America, but we're not getting the message out enough because people are still getting victimized. We'll be done when people are, you know, are hardened to the point where these, these scammers move on to something else completely.
Speaker 0 00:35:50 Uh, and, and they're not prey on us this way because it's still working. So we gotta keep getting this information out. But, um, but again, thank, thank you very much for your time and, um, I'm going to, uh, also thank our audience for this. Uh, again, go back and catch part one, uh, that it's already posted, um, and again, and, and I'll, I'll have notes and links below. Um, but I'm Russ Dorsey with, uh, cyber Matters. Uh, we'll wrap this session up, powered by the Kaso Podcast and Network. And I wanna wish you a very good afternoon. Thank you very much.
