Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:06 All right, well, hello and welcome back to, uh, another episode of Cyber Matters. I'm your host, Russ Dorsey. Uh, we're powered of course, by the Kao Podcast Network. Uh, cyber Matters is a, a show where we talk about the cyber that matters, uh, both to our clients and their families, and, and keeping, uh, you know, it's, it's taking advantage and, and, uh, utilizing technology, uh, and, but also how to protect yourself in a changing world. Um, and to, to that end, in our last episode that we're continuing, we were talking about international travel. There's a cyber component to that where there's a largely human component and personal security component to that. And for that, we, we, we had Doug Wilson, he's re he's joining us back here for part two. Um, Doug is a, uh, retired lieutenant colonel with US Air Force and International Guard.
Speaker 1 00:00:48 Uh, he was an intelligence officer with a 27 year career in the Air Force. Also, uh, you know, now the co-founder of Counter Threat Group, which we've been talking about. Please go back and watch episode one. We talk about what Counter Threat Group does. Um, but then, uh, also you're the, uh, assistant Vice President of University Advancement at Sanford, where you've been for about 20 years. And, and just talking about where we came from in the last episode, lemme bring you up. We were talking about all the things I've decided I need to overseas for mission trip or business for. I'm just taking my family on this post covid, thank goodness it's over trip. Um, and what are the things I need to do? Prepare. So we went through a really good checklist. So now we've had that long crowded flight. 'cause you did mention that with the, the, with the shortage on, on pilots and planes. All the flights are booked. So we've suffered through the flight. Um, and we're now landing at the airport over in wherever. Um, let's, you know, and so you've, you've got a long bullet list and we are gonna put these below in, in, in the podcast notes. But let's talk about now. What do me and my family, or me and my fellow travelers do now that we're in that country to stay safe?
Speaker 2 00:01:51 Well, you know, we, you landed at the airport and so, you know, if you're with a tour group, your transportation's gonna be taken care of. Um, if, if not, you know, you gotta figure out, I gotta get to the hotel. Typically, you're not gonna rent a car, you're probably gonna rely on public transportation when you're overseas. Um, renting a car is very risky if you don't know the roads and how to get around. I, you know, I, I've driven in England of all places a lot and they drive on the wrong side of the road there <laugh>. So, but, uh, that was outta necessity. But, um, but I mean, driving a car overseas, great, if you are comfortable with it and you know the lay of the land and you got people with you that are helping you. But a cab's probably the first thing you're gonna need to get, make sure it's an official cab.
Speaker 2 00:02:28 You don't know what the official cab, you can research it before you go. But you can also look out at the airport and you know that there's kind of an official cab company. You just see a lot of them. Don't let an individual direct you to a cab. You get your own cab. You don't need somebody telling you, Hey, come to me. I've got a cab. And you get, you can see their car and it's not really a cab. Uh, 'cause again, they recognize you as being an American. There's a lot of things that people can immediately do to identify an American, and we'll talk about some of those too. But, uh, be real weary of getting in anything that's not an official cab from that country. Um, you want to, you wanna only use those when, when you're traveling around.
Speaker 1 00:03:00 So, so would you, uh, uh, warn against like Uber and, and
Speaker 2 00:03:04 Lyft? I would warn against it. I would read about, well, again, whatever country you're going to and see, you know, is that a, is that a white, is that an active, um, way to get around in those countries? And then what are the identifying symbols? Typically in our country, they've got the sticker. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they confirmed that you've got, you know, here's their tag number and all that. If they've got the protocols set up for Uber, I wouldn't be nervous about taking it, but I'd wanna make sure I can confirm that that is an Uber or Lyft driver.
Speaker 1 00:03:28 Okay. So that would be a thing. Yeah. Okay. Alright. Alright. So, and, and again, so yeah, you, you said, you said don't let a stranger direct you to your cab. I mean, um, let's, let's, let's talk about it against behavior. 'cause 'cause you did mention they, they, they, they can identify how we're American. Now how do they do that?
Speaker 2 00:03:43 Yeah. Well, I tell you what, one of the things that even in this country, you, you've got to be aware, situational awareness, it's never more important than it is overseas. Um, it's important everywhere but overseas, uh, you look different. You have behaviors and mannerisms to give you away as being a tourist. So anything you can do to keep from exhibiting those behaviors and mannerisms, uh, the better you are. Um, so situation awareness is being aware of everything that's going on around you. Be looking it people, not for long gazes, but just be aware of the people that are around the areas that you're in. If you notice somebody really looking at you, try to get away from that situation. 'cause they probably identified you as being American in their mind. If you're American, you're wealthy, if you're American, you're tied to money. If you're American, you're a target, because I know you guys are vulnerable and gullible and I can, you know, rob you and do other things because we're not paying attention to our backpacks and our purses and the things that, um, that most people do in other countries.
Speaker 2 00:04:40 And those are the two most significant areas where a petty crime can happen. Um, I was in a situation in Rome, for instance, where some guys that were part of the military, uh, group that I was with had gone over there and they came back with, um, slits in their back pockets because they were dumb enough to put their wallet in their back pocket. And, uh, someone sliced it. They never knew it. They took their wallet out. They're very good. Uh, pickpockets are very, very good in all these countries. And so they'll do bumping techniques, they'll come up to you. Somebody will just start talking rapidly to you, close in your space, and you're focusing on them and somebody else is going into your pockets or your backpack. So, um, it's very easy for these folks to identify that you're not from there and that you've got stuff that we want.
Speaker 2 00:05:22 And so anybody that comes up starts talking to you, be very skeptical. Um, any kind of valuable item that you carry with you, um, don't ever put it in an exterior pocket of a backpack. Don't ever put anything of value in the back, uh, in, in the back pockets of your pants. Uh, we, a lot of clothes now have the zipper pockets in the front. You can use those. Um, there's, there's money clips that you can put under your clothes, your credit card and passport or things that you can put around your neck and under your clothes. Not super comfortable, but you know, it's not that big a deal, but at least it's on your neck and under your clothing the entire time. If somebody's getting at you got other problems,
Speaker 1 00:05:59 You, you, you, you refer to that in the last episode as positive control,
Speaker 2 00:06:03 Positive control of that. And that your money, your pa I mentioned the passport, but yeah, the passport, your credit cards. You know, if, if you have like a medical shot record that you know, they wanna see, have you had yellow fever shot or whatever that you might have to show at some point if you're in a third world country. But you want all that on you at all times. Um, the behavior that you're exhibiting when you are in a different country, that gives you a way. Americans are more animated. Americans make a lot of eye contact. Americans wear clothes that aren't like what they were in other countries. I always say, take a look at the country you're going to get on the website, look around, see how people dress in that country and figure out, you know, all these bright clothes I have. You don't see many people wearing bright clothes.
Speaker 2 00:06:41 I need to get more subdued, you know, earth tone type clothes, um, or the kinds of shoes they wear. I mean the, you know, do they wear white tennis shoes? You know, that's a trend fashion thing. Some countries, they don't wear that kind. Do they wear shorts? No. You know, I've gone to some countries like Turkey, I spent a lot of time in Turkey. They don't wear shorts. Even in the hot part of the summer, you don't see guys walking around in shorts. And so if you wanna stand out as an American, wear something totally different than what everybody else is wearing. So it may not be as comfortable in some of these countries, but if you get a feel for how they dress, um, again, that blends you in a little bit better. Don't wear clothing that has, uh, American, hey, you know, Atlanta Braves baseball.
Speaker 2 00:07:17 Yeah. U s a all over a sweatshirt. It's proud to be proud to be an American, but overseas don't advertise it because Americans have a negative connotation in a lot of countries. And again, uh, you're identified as being very wealthy. So clothing that identifies, you know, western brands, western logos, sports teams that are American. Um, I'd stay away from it. Now you're gonna get to these countries. You're gonna see some of those folks over there wearing stuff about the Atlanta Braves and all. And you're gonna look at 'em and say they are, you know, they are Greek, I can tell. Just, you know, you can tell the Greek, but they can get away with it. You look very American wearing that stuff. So anything you can do to again, take away the possibility that you might be American, uh, they can tell the way you're talking.
Speaker 2 00:07:56 Americans talk louder than people in other countries. And so you have a group of people walking down the street and they're speaking English. You know, someone across the street says that's a, that's much of Americans. So be aware of how loud you're talking and, uh, you know, in public places, don't draw attention to yourself. I always say small groups are better than big groups. Big groups draw attention. The smaller the group, the the less attention. Really. You're, you're almost safer just by yourself. That doesn't draw a lot of attention, particularly if you're practicing the blending in. But most people that travel don't wanna be by themselves and probably shouldn't be. Uh, but the less people that you know, obviously when you're in a tour group, that's a pretty big giveaway. But, um, hopefully there's protocols within that tour agency. So those are some of the things. Don't be a flashy American, wearing a bunch of American looking stuff and promoting yourself as American.
Speaker 1 00:08:43 And, and, and I imagine there's a cultural aspect to that as well, to to be respectful of the culture that you're visiting, um, to, um, to, to understand those things that may be hot button items Yes. Or insults to their culture. I mean, I don't know, I didn't know about the shorts thing, but that may be Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:08:58 It could be an insult in a, in a country that's primarily Muslim. I mean, um, and it's hot. It's hot in Turkey, you know, I only put my shorts on and go downtown, do a little, well, you'll be the only human walking around with shorts on. And so it's a dead giveaway. But, um, so yeah, you need to know, particularly in some of the countries that you go to that you know, you might be more at risk of something bad happening. I would definitely be, uh, pay attention to the cultural things. A lot of European countries, you're gonna see shorts. Yeah, sure. You know, you're gonna see them dressing sort of the way we do. But you need to, what what I've told, uh, I've, I've been in front of students a lot. I even at Sanford before they travel internationally, and I say, when you get to the country, let's say you're going to Spain, when you're in Madrid, sit on a bench right after you get there and just start looking at people and pick out the Americans and they say how don't know who they are.
Speaker 2 00:09:42 And I say, you'll know 'em when you see 'em, <laugh>. I said, see whatever it is they're doing. And don't do that because you're gonna know they're American by whatever it is they're doing. Yeah. They just give themselves away. It's the way we carry ourselves, you know, our expressions. Uh, it, it, it's, a lot of it is a little bit of a practice to get involved in being really comfortable blending in. And one of the biggest giveaways is getting lost. Anytime that you travel to another country, uh, you're gonna get lost. And honestly, that's part of the fun of it. You get lost and it becomes an adventure. But the last thing you wanna do is act like you don't know where you are, because that is going to draw attention. If you're standing out in the public square and you're looking at a map or looking at your phone, you're looking around real frantically because you can't find the street.
Speaker 2 00:10:20 Well, somebody's gonna notice that that person doesn't know where they are and they're gonna come up and offer help. And it may not be who you want to offer you help. Right. So if you're lost, it's okay. Act cool, act like you know this. Just act like nothing happened and just stroll into a local restaurant, a bar, whatever it is, a shop. Get your bearings inside somewhere. Don't stand out in public looking lost because it's gonna draw a lot of attention to you and that's not what you want. Right. Um, but everybody's gonna get lost. So it will happen, but just don't let it bother you. Just walk into somewhere away from the public view and figure out where you are. Get your
Speaker 1 00:10:54 Bearing. Yeah. Uh, yeah, you, you, you, you mentioned about large, uh, about large gatherings, and I think that's, uh, you know, I, I imagine, unless I'm running with the bulls, you know, I, I, I probably, you know, unless you, you you're doing that anywhere else, that that would definitely be a, a, a, a thing you might be drawn to, to see what's going on. But, but, but you mentioned here, you know, large gatherings and public demonstrations. There
Speaker 2 00:11:16 Are popup demonstrations that happen in a lot of countries. They're doing, you know, they, they're angry about something and there'll be this big demonstration. I mean, we do that in our country, but you as a someone not from there, going up there and kind of taking pictures and seeing what's going on, they, they could turn on you. So you wanna watch that stuff from a distance. You don't wanna get so curious that you get, you walk up to it because there's a lot of frenzy, a lot of passion in whatever it is they're demonstrating, and they can turn that on you, particularly if they say, this guy has nothing to do with our group. Um, so you'd be real careful about that because I've seen him in a lot of countries. I was in Greece actually, and they had one in one of the cities I was in. And, and I was talking about step safe traveler enrollment, pro smart travel enrollment program. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, I got a step alert about a demonstration actually happening in this place. I was in Greece, and sure enough it happened. So, um, so that's another value of having the the step program. The
Speaker 1 00:12:05 Step program, which was along on the Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:12:07 But yeah, stay away from, uh, those kinds of things. And you know, one of the other things I say is that we all want to go to, um, popular places mm-hmm. <affirmative> that you've read about. It's a great place to eat. It's a fun place to go on a Friday night. Well, terrorists and people that are looking to do bad things are gonna do it during peak times. They're gonna go when there's the most amount of people. They can make the biggest media splash and hopefully get a lot of westerners. And they know in these countries, Paris for instance, they had that event back in 2017. They hit an outdoor cafe, they hit a indoor concert venue, hit something else, but killed a lot of people that night, a terrorist attack. And it was a Friday night peak time when everybody was out. Um, so if you want to go do some of these things and you know, it's a popular, trendy place, instead of doing it on a Friday or Saturday night, consider doing it on a Tuesday or Wednesday night.
Speaker 2 00:12:51 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that's not when they're probably gonna target it. They're gonna target it during the peak times, uh, during the busy times, if you're gonna get on public transportation in other countries, there have been terrorist attacks on public transportation. It happened really bad in Spain back in 2000, maybe 15. But, um, if you can, if you can get on public transportation, subways, trains, those kind of things off times and not during rush hour, it reduces the risk of something bad happening because a terrorist is gonna strike during the busy times. So if you can alternate your time from those times, you've probably really reduced the risk. We can't always do that. I don't always practice what I preach on that I can assure you. Um, I do the things contrary to what I talk about, even though I know it's wrong. But you just can't, you avoid it sometimes. You have to get on the train at eight in the morning and go somewhere, but if you can't avoid it, it's better. So
Speaker 1 00:13:38 I, I, I traveled with a travel agent one time, uh, on the cruise we took, and that, that was the first lesson. It was for different reasons, but they were like, everybody's gonna get to do what they wanna do. Let's sit back, let the crowd do it, and then we'll go when they're not there. So even, you know, the terrorism being a, a factor of that or attacks, but also just catching it during the off peak's gonna be more pleasurable. You know, you're gonna have, you have a better experience. And then there's this added benefit of maybe not being there, something, you know, something if something breaks out. One
Speaker 2 00:14:05 Thing I will quickly mention too is when you, you know, if, if you're on your own and you're, you're staying in your own hotel, um, I would avoid Western branded hotels overseas as much as you can. Sounds kind of odd. You know, we all wanna stay in the Hiltons and the Marriotts and Heights and whatever they are the ones we're familiar with, and they have 'em in a lot of countries, but there's some really nice, really good small European or, you know, local hotels that you can stay in. And the reason I say that the bigger hotel, the bigger the threat. And also if it's a Western branded hotel, um, somebody that's looking to carry out an act of terrorism knows there's westerners that probably stay there. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and so that's a big target, and let's go after that one. You're probably not gonna have that issue ever happen to you in a small local hotel.
Speaker 2 00:14:44 Yeah. But, you know, you think about the, even the Mumbai, was it India where they had the big Marriott terrorist attack years ago. I mean, those kind of, those kind of hotels are gonna attract that kind of attack. So, um, if you, if you could stay in a different sort of hotel that's not a Western branded one, um, do that if you can. I mean, again, everybody's not gonna wanna do that. And, um, it's not always possible you might be with to a group where they book those kind of hotels, but if you're on your own and you can make the decision, I'd veer away from those and stay in something more local. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:15:13 Um, uh, just, just to, uh, to just talk about cash again. Um, and you got, you got a note here about banks and, and in, in the prior segment we talked about at M Scams, but you had, you had warned that we should travel with, uh, a limited amount of cash, probably just enough to get through a day or two worth of emergencies, use plastic for everything else. Um, but if I, if I were to find myself needing a large amount of cash or, uh, you know, I'm, I'm doing something like that. You said the, the hotel safes aren't worth anything.
Speaker 2 00:15:40 I, I personally, whenever use a hotel safe.
Speaker 1 00:15:42 Yeah. So, so is there a trick if you do have sensitive documents or you did have to take your laptop overseas for business, but you don't leave it there on the hotel in the two days, you do have to go to the beach. Is there, I mean, is the hotel safe down behind the concierge desk a better place?
Speaker 2 00:15:57 You know, you, you, you could, you could, you could consider, uh, I, I sort of hate to keep something like that even with another person that I don't know. Yeah. But, um, uh, you, you know, for that instance, I would try to find somewhere in the room that's just really, you think it's pretty well hidden. I mean, I've things in a suitcase before that are, you know, kind of in a pocket behind a bunch of stuff that they'd really have to kind of look around for. I try to find my own little hiding places. Um, I guess the safest, the next best backup, but yeah, I,
Speaker 1 00:16:24 I just always heard that the, the front desk safe at the hotel was better because it's at least there with the front desk staff.
Speaker 2 00:16:29 If you, if you can confirm that they will put it in a safe Yeah. I would be okay with that. Um, because they, I mean, they want, they don't wanna lose business. They want you to stay there and other people, so they don't wanna see an instance. So if they have a safe that they could put it in, I'd be okay with that. I'd be, that would be the next best solution in my opinion. Oh. But, but, but about cash, you're talking about carrying cash around. Yeah. Um, I, I, I recommend something called a dummy wallet. Yeah. And, and again, don't keep anything valuable in any exterior pocket or any exterior backpack pocket. Keep it, keep it close to you somewhere that's really well hidden on you, but build a little dummy wallet and that's a wallet where you can find some business cards, uh, or just some fake, you know, coupon from this restaurant or that restaurant.
Speaker 2 00:17:11 Some little things in there that make it look like it's got official stuff in it. And then put some real currency from that country you're in, in the wallet. Maybe 10 bucks worth of something where there's two or three bills and could even have an American dollar or two in there, have some real money in there. You, you know, it might be 10 or $15, but if you get into a situation where you're cornered and somebody's robbing, you pull out this wallet, say you got here, take it. They open it up, they see real money, they've got your stuff, and then you take off running, they take off running. Yeah. They don't have your stuff. They got seven or eight bucks, but they don't have your id. Your, your, they don't have your, um, driver's license your $200 in cash, all your credit cards. They think they have all your stuff, but they don't because you gave them a wallet, but it's not a real wallet.
Speaker 1 00:17:53 So Yeah. My, my, my daughter went just Philadelphia. It wasn't overseas, but, uh, well,
Speaker 2 00:17:57 I would do that in Philadelphia and New York. That's in Chicago and LA Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:18:01 That, that, that's what I was gonna say. Now she had one of those caddies that goes on the back of your phone Yeah. Where she had everything, you know, and they got everything at once. Don't
Speaker 2 00:18:11 Ever. Yeah. Not, and
Speaker 1 00:18:12 It, unfortunately, it wasn't a dummy thing. It was everything, stuff she needed for the trip. Real. Yeah. Um, you know, that's the, uh, I was trying to go through the list. I, I think we'll talk about some of these final items about some of the, you know, the real dangers. I like this email. They, you know, a copy of your itinerary and you've mentioned Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:18:27 Very, very
Speaker 1 00:18:27 Important. You, you'd mentioned somebody back home having your passport. But if I a
Speaker 2 00:18:31 Copy of it,
Speaker 1 00:18:31 But if I made my itinerary, and even if I'm gonna change this again, I'm gonna talk about my daughter who's traveled through life with a lot of luck, apparently. Yeah. But she, when she was living in Las Vegas, she'd go just camping in the high desert and she'd be gone for a couple of days and she would seldom let us know, you know, if she's out. She came back to Alabama and did that, you know, and, and I, and she's in East Alabama, and I was like, honey, it doesn't matter. There's people, you know,
Speaker 2 00:18:55 Tell us where you are. That's
Speaker 1 00:18:57 All. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. But, but, but definitely I think that's
Speaker 2 00:18:59 Critically important.
Speaker 1 00:18:59 But, but definitely if you're overseas and you do have a change to your itinerary, which you've already, you know, let people know and it's day four and you wind up, you're gonna go to in Istanbul, instead of where you can go, then you need to let people know, uh, so that they're missing you if you don't come back. Right. Or if there's a problem, you already,
Speaker 2 00:19:14 Exactly. What I say about that is, is you know, the itinerary, the hotels you're gonna be in, which day you're gonna be in it, the address or phone number for that hotel, um, obviously they have your contact information, um, in the amount of time you think you're gonna spend in various places. Just, just so they know, hey, today, today, based on their itinerary, this is the country they should be in, this hotel they should be staying at. And then you as the traveler, if there's a change to that, um, you know, trying to make sure the person that has your itinerary knows that, and it's okay to leave your itinerary with more than one person. So it's, it's a, it's a safety thing. And I know with kids, um, they're, uh, you don't need to know where I'm and all that stuff, but it, it's very important for safety. So
Speaker 1 00:19:54 Yeah, I, I had a, a good friend, um, that, one of her pictures from when she was a teenager, and it was the 1960s, maybe early 1970s when you do this, and she's on a picture, some, uh, she's on a, a bike, uh, somewhere in India in this picture. And I asked Mary, I said, where, where are you at? And then she said, oh, I, she was, she's from England, so she had, she had backpacked and biked pretty much from England to Australia. And I was like, well, those, those were the days, weren't they? Yeah. When you could probably do something. I don't think that's the case anymore. And again, you like to think that 98% of the time, 99% of the time as an American, you can travel, um, someplace and, and get there safely. Um, but I mean, there, there are hot spots in this world.
Speaker 1 00:20:33 You mentioned Mexico, uh, a little while ago. I had a friend, uh, and her father was, uh, he was in the, um, uh, he bought, uh, antique pieces and, and estates and things, but he had be had, he'd go down to Mexico and get furniture and things from down there. Um, and, and Rebecca was, she might've been 95 pounds on a day, she'd eaten a lot. <laugh>, you know, she was tiny. Her husband was a big old boy. He was, uh, he's probably 300 pounds, but they were going through a street in Mexico and she just got behind him. And the father was ahead and the husband's right in front and she stepped out from between them to look at something for half a second. And before she could catch that back up with him, she had been grabbed, oh my God. And was over somebody's shoulder, headed up an alley alley. Now the husband managed to get ahold of them before they got too far, but it was just that quick. Mm-hmm. So one of the things that, you know, if, if you, if you have places right now for the next couple of years 'cause of our geopolitics and just things, and like you said, the cartels, where, where are places that are better right now to go or things that you can, you know, there's a cautionary thing that you can tell us?
Speaker 2 00:21:33 Well, you know, uh, there are, there are a lot of great countries go to, I, I think the safest thing to tell people about, you know, when they're traveling is, is again, there is another site on this. If you go to the, the travel site, the international travel site on the, um, state Department. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, our website actually has a link to that. Um, the State Department, uh, travel, um, international travel warnings and things like that. They, I then they, they, they put a number for every single country, um, in the world. So you could look up a country and it will tell you the travel, the, the security level, travel level. So 1, 2, 3, and four. One is pretty safe. Two's pretty safe. Three, three is, uh, recommend, do not travel. And four is do not travel. It is red. They're, they're color coded. So red is don't go there.
Speaker 2 00:22:17 Now, there's bad things going on. You don't wanna go there. Uh, for instance, Afghanistan would be a red, um, the, um, uh, some countries will be, there'll, there'll be, I believe it's the orange, which is recommend do not travel because there's something going on somewhere in that country that's bad. It doesn't mean you can't necessarily go, you would just avoid that area, but it kind of makes the whole country recommend no travel. Um, but just read what it is. It will tell you what the incident is or what's going on that prompted that particular alert. Their travel alerts are red is do not travel, but I think it's really good for anywhere you're going in the world, whether it's Europe, you know, Paris right now, they've been having a whole lot of riots going on in Paris. You wouldn't normally think of that being an issue, but they've had that over the years off and on. But they've had a lot of riots. I haven't really paid attention over the past week. I think it's died down a little bit. But the streets of Paris were really bad about a week ago. So that would be something I'd wanna be aware of before I went over there. Um, if you already have something booked, it doesn't mean I wouldn't go. I just know that I gotta be careful when I'm in Paris or maybe I change my itinerary and go to some other part of France before I end up in Paris. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:23:17 And you, you'd mentioned you're going to Uganda.
Speaker 2 00:23:20 Uganda, yes. Next
Speaker 1 00:23:21 Month for, for mission.
Speaker 2 00:23:22 It is gonna be a mission related, uh, operation. And so, um,
Speaker 1 00:23:26 So, so, so, so how do you feel about Uganda? I assume you've done your research and you've, you've done your thing. I've,
Speaker 2 00:23:30 This will be my third time. Um, I, I've been to South Sudan and then twice in Uganda. And so I'm with this, uh, group that's gonna be working with South Sudanese refugees that come, have come over the border of a civil war in South Sudan right now. So they're all sort of in the northern part of, uh, Uganda. And we'll be going to a place that's kind of doing medical missions for them Oh. To help them out. So, um, uh, this will be the third time I've done that similar type of thing. This group does this every year. So, um, yeah, it's always an adventure going over there. So it's, it's a lot of travel. Uh, that's,
Speaker 1 00:24:00 That's one of the things that's worth a calculated risk to do though, because you're doing something right. Right. You're doing something good. Um, alright, so I'm just, just kinda get in our last, uh, our last four minutes here. Um, so, and, and we might have touched on this, but to encapsulate, you know, so I'm overseas and a worst case scenario is unfolding for me, other than I'd got lost on a side street in Spain or wherever. And I'm, I'm trying to find my way back. What are, you know, if, if I've done my preparation, I've got the embassy numbers there, I mean, what, what, who am I gonna reach out to? Is it just the local police? Am I gonna try to get back to the embassy? What's, how's that gonna play out? Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:24:36 Definitely, definitely get the numbers of the closest embassy to where you're gonna be traveling. A lot of the big cities in Europe or other places, they're gonna have embassies get the counselor information so that you have a contact number to call if something were to happen, you lost your passport or something happened to you or to somebody that you're with and you need, you need our government cell. Yeah. So always get those numbers and those are available through, um, again, that state department site. That's what I'd look for to get the counselor, the, the embassy numbers or the local counselor, whatever it is. So I always get those. I think it's very helpful. Something else about phone numbers, I would write down the phone numbers of all your credit cards, you know, on a little piece of paper that you keep with you somewhere so that if you lost your, your visa, you've got the one 800 number to call internationally, you know that number's on the back of the card, it's not the card. So you lose your card. How do you call 'em? It says call this number if you lose your card. Well the card's lost. How do I know about that? So you wanna write that down in advance if it did get lost, you have all the numbers of all your critical things like that. I I just have a cheat sheet of all the numbers that you might need at some point, including the embassy numbers. So, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:25:36 So I mean, you, you, you've gotten, again, I'm, I'm gonna ask some, some questions. 'cause again, I told you I've never been overseas, but if, if, and obviously you don't wanna break the law overseas 'cause it all betts are off, but it, but are the local police, uh, you know, are gonna help you get to the embassy. Uh, yeah. And
Speaker 2 00:25:53 Cooperating, if you're talking with uniform police officers, uh, they wanna know about issues, particularly if you're concerned about something you see, this doesn't look right, I'm afraid the guy, you know, looks like he's got a gun, whatever it is, they wanna know about that 'cause they wanna thwart bad things happening in their countries because that affects tourism and everything else. So, you know, don't ever be, uh, afraid to communicate with real law enforcement officers. Um, but also they, um, um, if, if, if you, you said something just a second. Yeah, well
Speaker 1 00:26:22 I, I was just talking about because because that's the thing. If, if, you know, if your experience is what you've seen in movies, the, the, the local, you know, police Capitan is always corrupt as can be. You know, he's the last guy. But I I, I don't think that's really the case. I think what if
Speaker 2 00:26:35 You're really bad, if you're around a really third world country, that's something you do have to be aware of. And you know, sometimes, honestly in some countries, not European countries, but third world countries, if you're traveling to them, some of the extra cash you need is sometimes to pay people off just to let you keep going down the road. Yeah. So, I mean, that kind of stuff will happen. So, um, those are some of the contingencies you run into.
Speaker 1 00:26:53 Yeah. But, but, but, but if you've gotten in that kind of situation, you're probably with a group and somebody that knows their way around. Yeah. If, if, if, if I were to find myself, I, I go back to that trip to Mexico. If I'd seen a, if I was at a road where I was needed to pay somebody to pass, I've, I've already made a lot of mistakes, I think to get there. When I left the ship <laugh>, you know, I made a lot of, I made a lot of bad choices and it should've just stopped at the first bar to have a, a margarita and didn't go back to the ship. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:27:18 And, and one of the things, you know, in another country, if you break the law in their country, you're not us can't help you for breaking law in another country. Yeah. You're under their country's laws. You could end up in that country's jail system. So be aware of your conduct. And I tell that to, you know, everybody, but which,
Speaker 1 00:27:33 Which, which goes even to your point about, about driving. I mean, you just don't think about the risk of, if, if I was to bad you
Speaker 2 00:27:38 Have an accident, but it was your fault. We wouldn't put you in jail 'cause you just hurt this person.
Speaker 1 00:27:42 Right. If I hit a pedestrian in Italy, I'm all of a sudden involved in the Italian legal system. Yeah. Whereas I, if I'd just taken the public transportation and walked a little bit, I could have avoided that risk completely. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:27:52 You have too much to drink and you get into an altercation or, you know, hit somebody or touch somebody the wrong way. I mean, there's all kinds of things that can land you in their jail. So just be aware you're not, the United States can't help you in that. You're under their laws. Um, so that's something, you know, I particularly tell young people, you're not in America anymore. Yeah. It goes back to that if you do something wrong, you're under their laws. Yeah. It goes back
Speaker 1 00:28:12 To that low profile bullet point Yeah. Of, of just not causing those problems. But we're, we're up at, uh, at 30 minutes and, and, and Doug, this has been, uh, this has been fantastic again for anybody that's traveling either this summer or whatever. So, um, I encourage you again to go back, catch the first part of this episode. Uh, we're gonna have, uh, Doug, Doug said I can put these bullet points below. So I'm gonna get, uh, I'll put them in the notes, uh, the, uh, uh, US department, uh, step side. I'll make sure that's there. And certainly links to counter threat group, uh, and the work you guys are doing. Is there anything, any parting, you know, comments you'd want to
Speaker 2 00:28:43 No, I would say, you know, basically what we talk about, we could talk another five or six hours to talk about everything that you need to be aware of with international travel. But this was some of the basic key things just for, just for being aware of your surroundings and minimizing the look that you have as being a, a tourist or an American or whatever that draws attention to yourself, if you can. Well,
Speaker 1 00:29:04 Well let me, let me just do a shameless plug for you since, I mean we, we we're doing a, you know, project now with, uh, with a, a country in the Middle East, I think it's in Saudi Arabia. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, it's counter, counter third group where you provide this kind of consulting to corporations. Right. So that might be one thing, again, I'll have, we
Speaker 2 00:29:19 Can do more, uh, we can do more significant or, or detailed country study information on where, what, what's going on in the countries that you might be traveling to and, um, what are areas of the country that probably aren't the best for Americans to go to if there is such a thing in the country. So yeah, we, we, we can do a lot more detailed type specific country Okay. Country specific information. Alright.
Speaker 1 00:29:39 So, so, so we'll end on that. If it's for personal, I've got the links below. But if it's something business related and you are concerned about keeping your employees safe, there's counter group and there's other, other, other companies like that, church
Speaker 2 00:29:49 Groups, mission groups, sometimes they don't always get a lot of information about the countries they're going to and just some,
Speaker 1 00:29:54 But, but, but it might be worth getting a third party to come in and, and, and do a quick consult if, if it's an ongoing engagement or something. So. Alright, well, uh, Doug, again, I appreciate your time. Uh, I appreciate you coming over here for this. Thank
Speaker 2 00:30:04 You Russ. Thank you Kasu for having me. So, um, yeah,
Speaker 1 00:30:07 And I'll, uh, let's see if I can, uh, do my extra here. Um, and, and, and thank you the listeners, uh, again, this was, uh, had been cyber matters even though this was maybe more of a travel matters. Uh, but I'm Russ Dorsey, your, your host, um, and, uh, it's part of the <inaudible> Podcast Network and we appreciate you being here, uh, you know, with us for this special, this special episode. And we'll look forward to talking to you soon.
